Mr. Liman, you once said that even if you’re making a big budget studio film, you have to approach it with the mindset of an independent film. What’s the difference?
With big studio films, a lot of the times, they’re going for good. Oftentimes there’s a built-in audience or a really famous cast, like for a Marvel sequel, people are going to see it anyway, and you only have to make it good — because to make something great means it’s either going to be great, or it’s going to be awful. You can’t play it safe and make something great and different and unique. There’s no way to do that safely. But when you make an independent movie, you start from the place of no audience; no one is going to see this unless it’s great. I mean, look at my first film, Swingers, it's a bunch of first time actors talking for an hour and a half about their girlfriends. No one is going to go see that movie. I haven't hooked you on Swingers with that, right? So it better be great, otherwise no one sees it. And there's a freedom to that.
So how does that impact your approach?
Well, when I started making big budget movies, for example Mr. & Mrs. Smith, we had Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, that was a big deal. That film could have had that built-in audience I mentioned, and I did sort of feel the pressure of, “Okay, maybe I play it safe with this one.” But when I talk about that independent film mindset, it means I still go from the place of: “Go for great and risk falling flat on your face.” There was a point maybe 10 days into the shoot for Mr. & Mrs. Smith where I realized I wasn’t taking as many risks, where I realized I was being driven by how much money is on the line, and I had to fight against that.
“I try to start from a place of: What would it take to get me off my ass and into a theater to see this movie? ”
What do you mean?
I guess I mean that the same chance you took on Swingers is a bigger risk on Mr. & Mrs. Smith. Because if I take big risks on Swingers, and it doesn't work that was a $200,000 investment, and no one will ever know it ever happened. But on Mr. & Mrs. Smith, the budget was north of 100 million, it’s a different story. So I did have to get back to a more independent way of thinking, really drive that out of my mind to get back to that sort of liberty of having nothing like I did on Swingers. And in the end, the things I did on Mr. & Mrs. Smith were some of the biggest risks of my career.
But you’ve still worked with some big names: Matt Damon, Tom Cruise, Jake Gyllenhaal. How do you ensure you don’t fall back on playing it safe in that context?
I start from a place of: Would I see this movie, and what would it take to get me off my ass and into a movie theater to see it? That’s how I ended up making two of the most anti Tom Cruise movies of recent memory. In Edge of Tomorrow, he plays a coward. It’s kind of a reaction against Mission: Impossible. So when I talk about big swings and you've got Tom Cruise interested in your movie… I'll never forget sitting down with him and knowing that what I was about to say could jeopardize him wanting to be in the movie. I said, “How would you feel about going against character and playing a coward and making that the defining feature?” It turns out that Tom Cruise takes the same big swings in his career that I aspire to do. And even though he hadn't done that before, he loved the idea, and that’s what we did.
Is that how you choose the actors you want to work with? Are you looking for people who are willing to take those big risks?
Not really. I come from a place of honesty. Would I believe that actor? I have a very simple bullshit meter on set. Do I believe the scene, or do I not believe it? Do I believe the actor, or do I not believe it? That's it. Casting is a real key for me. I think it was Hitchcock who said that 90 percent of his work is done just in the casting, and that’s the same for me. I wouldn’t say risk taking is what I'm looking for in an actor, but I am looking for someone who's interested in collaborating with me and building something together. I don’t have a real set script, so the film really develops a lot during rehearsals.
You’re apparently also very interested in character building. Is that something that also develops during rehearsals?
I’ll tell you a story, when I was young, I went to a movie theater in Times Square and saw Superman on a big screen. And I remember thinking, “I want to do that one day.” That’s what moved me. So when I eventually made Swingers, I was the toast of the town, and everyone was asking what film I wanted to make next, and I chose The Bourne Identity. I had read the book in high school, and I somehow got the rights and managed to sell it to Universal, eventually casting Matt Damon in it. I thought, “Now I get to make my version of Superman.” But I discovered when we started shooting that I actually am interested in character, and I didn’t know it until that moment. I had in mind to make a simple action film, Universal didn’t want me to care about character.
How come?
That means more rehearsals, more workshops, it’s a longer process. But I realized that figuring out how to have characters make smart decisions and still end up in exciting situations, that is one of the huge challenges The Bourne Identity and action movies in general. But it's one of the things I enjoy, I like the puzzle solving process of making movies.
“Failure isn’t falling down, it’s not getting back up. That’s become my philosophy in life.”
But how do you compete with classic action films like James Bond or Mission: Impossible?
I love that high bar, and I think it just means taking huge swings. I took a big swing with Chaos Walking, and I fell flat on my face with it. But I also recognize that there's no other way to stay true to myself. They would be false words if I wasn't willing to actually, in practice, fall flat on my face and then continue on and make a film like Roadhouse, which is now Amazon’s biggest film ever.
You mentioned falling flat on your face. How do you pick yourself back up after something like that?
I had a teacher growing up who said to me, “Failure isn’t falling down, it’s not getting back up. That’s failure.” That’s become my philosophy in life. I’m not saying it doesn’t hurt, it does. I'm someone who reads all my reviews. Even if you want to avoid it, it pops into your life. I just saw this one review this week where I was described as “a famously uneven director.” And at first, my feelings were hurt, but then when I think about it now, that's exactly what I'm talking about. You should be uneven. If you're truly pushing yourself to the point where every movie is an independent movie and you cannot play it safe, then you're going to get a reputation like that. It’s like, wow, I succeeded. So I’m trying to not let that sting, I’m trying to let that be a good thing.
Can you ever see yourself just making an easy movie for a change?
My mom suggested that to me recently! She said you’ve made enough movies, now just do something easy. But I'm not easy. I'm not interested in easy. There's an itch I'm never going to scratch, because whatever it is I'm striving to accomplish with my movies, I will never accomplish. It drives me crazy every day, and that's okay. I could never take a job that would be easier, I could never just sit around making spy movies all the time. I need to be striving for something different every time. So in that way, I haven’t even found my voice as a filmmaker, and I probably never will, because the day I find it will be the day I'll follow my mom's advice and take it easy.